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	<title>Comments for Investigations of a Dog</title>
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	<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com</link>
	<description>Failing better at understanding the past</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Most Unlikely by Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/06/25/most-unlikely/#comment-14042</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=232#comment-14042</guid>
		<description>Update: the song has been featured on the &lt;a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7477000/7477266.stm" rel="nofollow"&gt;Today programme&lt;/a&gt;. "I wasn't expecting our first play on national radio to be on Radio 4 but I'm really not complaining".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Update: the song has been featured on the <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7477000/7477266.stm" rel="nofollow">Today programme</a>. &#8220;I wasn&#8217;t expecting our first play on national radio to be on Radio 4 but I&#8217;m really not complaining&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Am I a proper historian now? by Investigations of a Dog &#187; Independence</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/04/14/am-i-a-proper-historian-now/#comment-14041</link>
		<dc:creator>Investigations of a Dog &#187; Independence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/04/14/am-i-a-proper-historian-now/#comment-14041</guid>
		<description>[...] starting to think that calling a post &#8220;Am I a proper historian now?&#8221; might have been a bad idea. It really wasn&#8217;t meant to be as self-pitying as it might [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] starting to think that calling a post &#8220;Am I a proper historian now?&#8221; might have been a bad idea. It really wasn&#8217;t meant to be as self-pitying as it might [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Most Unlikely by Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/06/25/most-unlikely/#comment-14033</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=232#comment-14033</guid>
		<description>I think we're in an impossible situation because we need a written constitution but can't trust anyone in power to write it. Just look at the so-called Human Rights Act, which I think takes away more than it gives. The need to comply with the European Human Rights Convention could have been an opportunity for a new constitution but what we got instead was at best a hopeless mess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we&#8217;re in an impossible situation because we need a written constitution but can&#8217;t trust anyone in power to write it. Just look at the so-called Human Rights Act, which I think takes away more than it gives. The need to comply with the European Human Rights Convention could have been an opportunity for a new constitution but what we got instead was at best a hopeless mess.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Most Unlikely by Ted Vallance</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/06/25/most-unlikely/#comment-14032</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Vallance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=232#comment-14032</guid>
		<description>Personally, I'd rather vote for Dickie Davis...but you are right, it is weird to see Shami Chakrabarti, Tony Benn, Simon Heffer and D Davis all lining up on the same side. My point really is that if you don't have a proper written constitution, this does become a 'how long is a piece of string question.' As Davis admits on his new blog, it raises questions about his current support for detaining people for 28 days without charge (why isn't that against 'Magna Carta and Habeas Corpus'?)Of course, this doesn't mean that he isn't right to oppose the counter-terrorism bill, which is definitely a 'bad thing' and for more reasons than 42-day detention - see the letter signed by Lord Rea et al which went in the Guardian some weeks ago for the full horrors of this piece of legislation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I&#8217;d rather vote for Dickie Davis&#8230;but you are right, it is weird to see Shami Chakrabarti, Tony Benn, Simon Heffer and D Davis all lining up on the same side. My point really is that if you don&#8217;t have a proper written constitution, this does become a &#8216;how long is a piece of string question.&#8217; As Davis admits on his new blog, it raises questions about his current support for detaining people for 28 days without charge (why isn&#8217;t that against &#8216;Magna Carta and Habeas Corpus&#8217;?)Of course, this doesn&#8217;t mean that he isn&#8217;t right to oppose the counter-terrorism bill, which is definitely a &#8216;bad thing&#8217; and for more reasons than 42-day detention - see the letter signed by Lord Rea et al which went in the Guardian some weeks ago for the full horrors of this piece of legislation.</p>
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		<title>Comment on War and Gender by Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/05/26/war-and-gender/#comment-14022</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=222#comment-14022</guid>
		<description>Goldstein's figures for bell curves were matched for age to a greater or lesser extent. While this isn't perfect he certainly wasn't comparing women in their 20s to men in their 60s. For height he used figures for 18 year olds from the US in 1982, so that was an exact match for age and showed a 15% overlap. He also points out there that gender ideology affects the body via nutrition because girls are expected to be thin and boys to be big and strong. For running speed he used finishing times for the New York marathon. There was a much bigger overlap here, but of course marathon runners might not be representative of the whole population. For upper body strength he used lifting capacity figures from the US Army. That's obviously a problem, because a sample limited to the army is likely to be biased in favour of stronger women, but it's also likely to be biased in favour of stronger men. But he points out that upper body strength is the area of greatest gender difference and even here the overlap of bell curves was 10%.

On pilots, I'd agree that the need for physical strength meant that only a minority of women might have been suitable in WWII. But Britain had a small but significant number of experienced female pilots such as Amy Johnson. Despite the urgent need for pilots during the Battle of Britain, they were assigned jobs as ferry pilots while inexperienced men were sent on combat missions. You could argue that Johnson was too famous to risk losing in combat (although she died in a plane crash anyway) but the same goes for Charles Lindbergh, who was given much more responsibility by the USAAF (and his performance in combat proved that experience in long distance flights easily transferred to being handy in a dogfight).

I'm not really assuming anything here, I'm just suggesting lots of possibilities. You're welcome to suggest more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goldstein&#8217;s figures for bell curves were matched for age to a greater or lesser extent. While this isn&#8217;t perfect he certainly wasn&#8217;t comparing women in their 20s to men in their 60s. For height he used figures for 18 year olds from the US in 1982, so that was an exact match for age and showed a 15% overlap. He also points out there that gender ideology affects the body via nutrition because girls are expected to be thin and boys to be big and strong. For running speed he used finishing times for the New York marathon. There was a much bigger overlap here, but of course marathon runners might not be representative of the whole population. For upper body strength he used lifting capacity figures from the US Army. That&#8217;s obviously a problem, because a sample limited to the army is likely to be biased in favour of stronger women, but it&#8217;s also likely to be biased in favour of stronger men. But he points out that upper body strength is the area of greatest gender difference and even here the overlap of bell curves was 10%.</p>
<p>On pilots, I&#8217;d agree that the need for physical strength meant that only a minority of women might have been suitable in WWII. But Britain had a small but significant number of experienced female pilots such as Amy Johnson. Despite the urgent need for pilots during the Battle of Britain, they were assigned jobs as ferry pilots while inexperienced men were sent on combat missions. You could argue that Johnson was too famous to risk losing in combat (although she died in a plane crash anyway) but the same goes for Charles Lindbergh, who was given much more responsibility by the USAAF (and his performance in combat proved that experience in long distance flights easily transferred to being handy in a dogfight).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really assuming anything here, I&#8217;m just suggesting lots of possibilities. You&#8217;re welcome to suggest more.</p>
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		<title>Comment on War and Gender by ad</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/05/26/war-and-gender/#comment-14021</link>
		<dc:creator>ad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=222#comment-14021</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; His focus was mainly on developed 20th century societies on the one hand and surviving gathering-hunting cultures on the other.&lt;/i&gt;

It occurs to me that hunter-gatherers are rarely in any position to assign roles to anyone – least of all to someone capable of taking to the field of battle. They are in no position to force anyone not to fight – and certainly cannot force them to fight. It might be better to look to the advantages to be gained by an individual who chooses to fight, bearing in mind the risks involved.

&lt;i&gt; Another possibility is that the need to preserve patriarchy in general overrode the need to win particular wars.&lt;/i&gt;

If they were all that concerned, you might have at least expected them to ban women from the throne. Remember Queen Elizabeth?

To defeat WW1 Germany, the British state made enormous sacrifices of money, power and, of course, blood. Great campaigns raged across the Continent. To defeat the suffragettes, they could hardly be bothered to launch a press campaign.

These comparisons, and others, suggest that any such perceived need was slight, compared to the perceived need to win wars.

This should not be a surprise as, historically, those societies that did not put victory first, soon ended up without the power to put anything first.

&lt;i&gt; But I wonder if anyone actually did these kinds of calculations.&lt;/i&gt;

They probably did not. But they met men and women every day, which should give a pretty good idea of their strengths and weaknesses. (Although what people say is true, what they believe they believe is true, and what they actually believe to be true, are not always the same.)

And I would still like to know if Goldstein’s figures include comparisons of man and women who are old, sick or otherwise ineligible for combat even in 1918. Because if he did not say he excluded them, I have no reason to believe he did.

Incidentally, note that second guessing the decisions of people distant in time and space, and assuming that in case of disagreement it must be them that made the mistake, is a little dangerous. To take your comment about WWII pilots: in those days the flight surfaces were still moved by the pilots muscles (via metal wires), NOT by a mechanism under his command. So the physical strength of the pilot certainly was an issue, especially in combat where small disadvantages were lethal.

This is why I assume that the people on the spot know better than me. They might be wrong, but the fact that I think differently, does not prove me right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> His focus was mainly on developed 20th century societies on the one hand and surviving gathering-hunting cultures on the other.</i></p>
<p>It occurs to me that hunter-gatherers are rarely in any position to assign roles to anyone – least of all to someone capable of taking to the field of battle. They are in no position to force anyone not to fight – and certainly cannot force them to fight. It might be better to look to the advantages to be gained by an individual who chooses to fight, bearing in mind the risks involved.</p>
<p><i> Another possibility is that the need to preserve patriarchy in general overrode the need to win particular wars.</i></p>
<p>If they were all that concerned, you might have at least expected them to ban women from the throne. Remember Queen Elizabeth?</p>
<p>To defeat WW1 Germany, the British state made enormous sacrifices of money, power and, of course, blood. Great campaigns raged across the Continent. To defeat the suffragettes, they could hardly be bothered to launch a press campaign.</p>
<p>These comparisons, and others, suggest that any such perceived need was slight, compared to the perceived need to win wars.</p>
<p>This should not be a surprise as, historically, those societies that did not put victory first, soon ended up without the power to put anything first.</p>
<p><i> But I wonder if anyone actually did these kinds of calculations.</i></p>
<p>They probably did not. But they met men and women every day, which should give a pretty good idea of their strengths and weaknesses. (Although what people say is true, what they believe they believe is true, and what they actually believe to be true, are not always the same.)</p>
<p>And I would still like to know if Goldstein’s figures include comparisons of man and women who are old, sick or otherwise ineligible for combat even in 1918. Because if he did not say he excluded them, I have no reason to believe he did.</p>
<p>Incidentally, note that second guessing the decisions of people distant in time and space, and assuming that in case of disagreement it must be them that made the mistake, is a little dangerous. To take your comment about WWII pilots: in those days the flight surfaces were still moved by the pilots muscles (via metal wires), NOT by a mechanism under his command. So the physical strength of the pilot certainly was an issue, especially in combat where small disadvantages were lethal.</p>
<p>This is why I assume that the people on the spot know better than me. They might be wrong, but the fact that I think differently, does not prove me right.</p>
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		<title>Comment on War and Gender by Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/05/26/war-and-gender/#comment-14020</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=222#comment-14020</guid>
		<description>You're right that this is a big problem and I don't think Goldstein has come up with a satisfactory solution - his conclusions about culture and ideology seem to me to be far too specific to 20th century America as I said above. His focus was mainly on developed 20th century societies on the one hand and surviving gathering-hunting cultures on the other. In both those cases there is some practical advantage to opening up combat roles to any women who are fit enough. I think Britain and Germany in both world wars would have done better to recruit women into combat roles (and the Soviet Union actually did). With a small tribe rather than a nation state it would seem more sensible to assign roles according to individual ability rather than average ability. But this might not hold for much of the rest of history. In classical, medieval, and early-modern societies the size of armies relative to population size might not have been big enough for the overlapping bell curves to come into play (although Charles Carlton argued that military participation rates in England in the civil wars were comparable to the First World War). So it could be that reluctance to admit women into combat roles in the 20th century was a hangover from two thousand or more years when there really was no advantage to doing so. One obvious example: the fact that women can make very good pilots is obviously irrelevant before the invention of aircraft.

Another possibility is that the need to preserve patriarchy in general overrode the need to win particular wars. The people for whom winning a war is good are the governments of states, and therefore likely to be mainly men (even more so in the past than in the present). Maybe they calculated that the small advantage they might get by recruiting women was outweighed by the potential threat to the established order by calling into question the assumption that men were superior and women inferior.

But I wonder if anyone actually did these kinds of calculations. In early-modern England it was just assumed that women were "the weaker vessel". Nobody had, needed, or wanted empirical data about average size and strength to support that assumption. I think there's a lot more work to be done on the tyranny of averages. Is it something built into people's brains? Treating individuals according to group averages seems to be a powerful thing even when people probably hadn't scientifically quantified those averages.

Also we should consider the possibility that there are different reasons for women's exclusion from combat at different times and  in different places. There's certainly a lot more work to be done in this area. Goldstein has started something that one book couldn't possibly finish, so there are lots of opportunities for new research here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right that this is a big problem and I don&#8217;t think Goldstein has come up with a satisfactory solution - his conclusions about culture and ideology seem to me to be far too specific to 20th century America as I said above. His focus was mainly on developed 20th century societies on the one hand and surviving gathering-hunting cultures on the other. In both those cases there is some practical advantage to opening up combat roles to any women who are fit enough. I think Britain and Germany in both world wars would have done better to recruit women into combat roles (and the Soviet Union actually did). With a small tribe rather than a nation state it would seem more sensible to assign roles according to individual ability rather than average ability. But this might not hold for much of the rest of history. In classical, medieval, and early-modern societies the size of armies relative to population size might not have been big enough for the overlapping bell curves to come into play (although Charles Carlton argued that military participation rates in England in the civil wars were comparable to the First World War). So it could be that reluctance to admit women into combat roles in the 20th century was a hangover from two thousand or more years when there really was no advantage to doing so. One obvious example: the fact that women can make very good pilots is obviously irrelevant before the invention of aircraft.</p>
<p>Another possibility is that the need to preserve patriarchy in general overrode the need to win particular wars. The people for whom winning a war is good are the governments of states, and therefore likely to be mainly men (even more so in the past than in the present). Maybe they calculated that the small advantage they might get by recruiting women was outweighed by the potential threat to the established order by calling into question the assumption that men were superior and women inferior.</p>
<p>But I wonder if anyone actually did these kinds of calculations. In early-modern England it was just assumed that women were &#8220;the weaker vessel&#8221;. Nobody had, needed, or wanted empirical data about average size and strength to support that assumption. I think there&#8217;s a lot more work to be done on the tyranny of averages. Is it something built into people&#8217;s brains? Treating individuals according to group averages seems to be a powerful thing even when people probably hadn&#8217;t scientifically quantified those averages.</p>
<p>Also we should consider the possibility that there are different reasons for women&#8217;s exclusion from combat at different times and  in different places. There&#8217;s certainly a lot more work to be done in this area. Goldstein has started something that one book couldn&#8217;t possibly finish, so there are lots of opportunities for new research here.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Some Things by Gary Smailes</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/06/17/some-things/#comment-14019</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Smailes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=228#comment-14019</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this Gavin. Everyone should feel free to send over a submission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this Gavin. Everyone should feel free to send over a submission.</p>
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		<title>Comment on War and Gender by ad</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/05/26/war-and-gender/#comment-14018</link>
		<dc:creator>ad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=222#comment-14018</guid>
		<description>Indeed I do: but I know that winning wars is good for the people waging the war. So when people claim that almost everyone waging a war, everywhere on Earth, for thousands upon thousands of years, have ALL made the same decision to damage their own war effort in the same way, I am suspicous.

The idea that everyones war effort has been dominated by gender ideology, to the detriment of that war effort, implies that any good honest cynic, more interested in his own conquests than his societies "gender ideology", would have gained a distinct advantage over the neighbours. And if this ever happened, it would tend to spread, as other powers would be compelled to follow suit.

Any ideology that is actually put into practice has to survive contact with the real world. And if it spreads world-wide, and lasts for thousands of years, it has to work very well. But doing something that almost always works, might as well be called pragmatism.

Of course, if circumstances change, it may stop working so well. And then even pragmatists will take some time to realise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed I do: but I know that winning wars is good for the people waging the war. So when people claim that almost everyone waging a war, everywhere on Earth, for thousands upon thousands of years, have ALL made the same decision to damage their own war effort in the same way, I am suspicous.</p>
<p>The idea that everyones war effort has been dominated by gender ideology, to the detriment of that war effort, implies that any good honest cynic, more interested in his own conquests than his societies &#8220;gender ideology&#8221;, would have gained a distinct advantage over the neighbours. And if this ever happened, it would tend to spread, as other powers would be compelled to follow suit.</p>
<p>Any ideology that is actually put into practice has to survive contact with the real world. And if it spreads world-wide, and lasts for thousands of years, it has to work very well. But doing something that almost always works, might as well be called pragmatism.</p>
<p>Of course, if circumstances change, it may stop working so well. And then even pragmatists will take some time to realise.</p>
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		<title>Comment on War and Gender by Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/05/26/war-and-gender/#comment-14015</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=222#comment-14015</guid>
		<description>It depends on the war. In peacetime and in small wars you wouldn't expect armies to get down to the level where women start to be better than men. But in the world wars they probably did. Goldstein points to the Red Army in the Second World War, which actually did send women into combat when things got desperate. The British Army in the First World War expanded very rapidly, took huge casualties, and was increasingly desperate for recruits. They started accepting men under what had previously been the minimum height of 5'3" (the bantam battalions). Also many men who were officially unfit for combat were kept in the Labour Corps and Royal Defence Corps. It's difficult to prove, but I wouldn't be surprised if they could have had more and better soldiers by recruiting women as well as men.

It's also important to remember that the size and strength statistics mainly affect infantry. Things are very different for pilots. Goldstein points out that small people make better pilots. Their heads are closer to their hearts, which means they can withstand g-force better without passing out, and aircraft manufacturers prefer designing small cockpits because they allow better aerodynamics. In the Second World War the RAF refused to allow experienced pilots like Amy Johnson to fly combat missions. That's got to be ideological.

I don't like to assume that there's a good reason for anything unless I actually know what that reason is. Gender ideology relies on assumptions that there must be a good reason why women are treated worse than men. Even if there is a good reason, you have to ask: who is it good for?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It depends on the war. In peacetime and in small wars you wouldn&#8217;t expect armies to get down to the level where women start to be better than men. But in the world wars they probably did. Goldstein points to the Red Army in the Second World War, which actually did send women into combat when things got desperate. The British Army in the First World War expanded very rapidly, took huge casualties, and was increasingly desperate for recruits. They started accepting men under what had previously been the minimum height of 5&#8242;3&#8243; (the bantam battalions). Also many men who were officially unfit for combat were kept in the Labour Corps and Royal Defence Corps. It&#8217;s difficult to prove, but I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if they could have had more and better soldiers by recruiting women as well as men.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also important to remember that the size and strength statistics mainly affect infantry. Things are very different for pilots. Goldstein points out that small people make better pilots. Their heads are closer to their hearts, which means they can withstand g-force better without passing out, and aircraft manufacturers prefer designing small cockpits because they allow better aerodynamics. In the Second World War the RAF refused to allow experienced pilots like Amy Johnson to fly combat missions. That&#8217;s got to be ideological.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t like to assume that there&#8217;s a good reason for anything unless I actually know what that reason is. Gender ideology relies on assumptions that there must be a good reason why women are treated worse than men. Even if there is a good reason, you have to ask: who is it good for?</p>
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