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	<title>Comments on: Strippers</title>
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	<description>Failing better at understanding the past</description>
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		<title>By: Richard J</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2009/11/08/strippers/comment-page-1/#comment-14404</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Gavin&gt; The word that best comes to mind to describe it would be &#039;antiseptic&#039;, to be honest. Sort of like a Disneyworld version of a strip club, with fake seediness subtly applied to give decent working folk a fun time, but yet the careful design of the entertainment experience was always there lurking in the background...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin&gt; The word that best comes to mind to describe it would be &#8216;antiseptic&#8217;, to be honest. Sort of like a Disneyworld version of a strip club, with fake seediness subtly applied to give decent working folk a fun time, but yet the careful design of the entertainment experience was always there lurking in the background&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2009/11/08/strippers/comment-page-1/#comment-14402</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=698#comment-14402</guid>
		<description>Richard: I had assumed that unisex strip clubs didn&#039;t exist, and that if they did it would be a good thing because they would necessarily be more queer, sex-positive and anti-patriarchal. Looks like I was wrong on both counts! Strip clubs can be very different in Second Life, but that&#039;s a whole other story...

Bavardess: I think a big part of the problem is that patriarchy makes all the rules, offers limited choices, and puts feminists in a no-win situation. The sex industry seems to be an issue which nearly always sets feminists against each other and forces them into unlikely alliances with anti-feminists. Insist that there&#039;s nothing wrong with sex and stand up for women&#039;s freedom to sell their bodies if they want to and you&#039;re inadvertantly encouraging capitalist exploitation. Oppose the abuse and exploitation of female sex workers and you&#039;re inadvertantly encouraging conservatives who hate sex and don&#039;t want women to have any freedom. Either way, patriarchy wins.

A good (or bad) example is the current debate in the UK over changes in the law on prostitution. We&#039;ve been offered a choice between keeping things exactly the same as before; making small changes which will make things slightly better for some women, but which might have unintended side effects that make things worse for other women; or some compromise between the two. What we really need is a more radical change that makes things much better for everyone. It shouldn&#039;t be that hard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard: I had assumed that unisex strip clubs didn&#8217;t exist, and that if they did it would be a good thing because they would necessarily be more queer, sex-positive and anti-patriarchal. Looks like I was wrong on both counts! Strip clubs can be very different in Second Life, but that&#8217;s a whole other story&#8230;</p>
<p>Bavardess: I think a big part of the problem is that patriarchy makes all the rules, offers limited choices, and puts feminists in a no-win situation. The sex industry seems to be an issue which nearly always sets feminists against each other and forces them into unlikely alliances with anti-feminists. Insist that there&#8217;s nothing wrong with sex and stand up for women&#8217;s freedom to sell their bodies if they want to and you&#8217;re inadvertantly encouraging capitalist exploitation. Oppose the abuse and exploitation of female sex workers and you&#8217;re inadvertantly encouraging conservatives who hate sex and don&#8217;t want women to have any freedom. Either way, patriarchy wins.</p>
<p>A good (or bad) example is the current debate in the UK over changes in the law on prostitution. We&#8217;ve been offered a choice between keeping things exactly the same as before; making small changes which will make things slightly better for some women, but which might have unintended side effects that make things worse for other women; or some compromise between the two. What we really need is a more radical change that makes things much better for everyone. It shouldn&#8217;t be that hard.</p>
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		<title>By: Linkblogging for 10/11/09 &#171; Sci-Ence! Justice Leak!</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2009/11/08/strippers/comment-page-1/#comment-14401</link>
		<dc:creator>Linkblogging for 10/11/09 &#171; Sci-Ence! Justice Leak!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/?p=698#comment-14401</guid>
		<description>[...] R has a very interesting review of a book on stripping (a subject on which I know very [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] R has a very interesting review of a book on stripping (a subject on which I know very [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bavardess</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2009/11/08/strippers/comment-page-1/#comment-14400</link>
		<dc:creator>Bavardess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You raise a lot of interesting issues here, not least the ambiguity of how sex work is constructed in Western culture and the fact that sex work - whether stripping, porn or prostitution - is always about more than &#039;just sex&#039; or &#039;just work&#039;. I have an academic interest in the history of prostitution and have done research in both the late medieval period and the 19th century. It&#039;s illuminating (if often depressing) to see how increased official interest in the regulation of sex work runs in parallel with other forms of de facto or de jure regulation of women&#039;s bodies and behaviour, and with conservative, reactionary or authoritarian political movements and regimes. I think it&#039;s partly the very long historical connection between women&#039;s (perceived) innate sexual disorder and other forms of social/political disorder that makes men almost invisible - either as buyers or sellers - in mainstream discourses about the sex industry.

I consider myself a sex-positive feminist, but I think the mainstreaming of stripper culture has been a big step backwards and is part of an anti-feminist backlash that cons young women into believing they&#039;re liberating themselves by turning themselves into disposable (and therefore low value) commodities. But moves like increasing censorship, shutting down clubs and making prostitution illegal are not the answer. They&#039;re just another expression of patriarchal culture that treats all women as either helpless victims or dangerous sluts, and either way, as not capable of full human autonomy. I agree with Carol Leigh&#039;s stance that poverty, access to education and other structural issues need to be addressed before anyone can really talk about full consent or free choice in this context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You raise a lot of interesting issues here, not least the ambiguity of how sex work is constructed in Western culture and the fact that sex work &#8211; whether stripping, porn or prostitution &#8211; is always about more than &#8216;just sex&#8217; or &#8216;just work&#8217;. I have an academic interest in the history of prostitution and have done research in both the late medieval period and the 19th century. It&#8217;s illuminating (if often depressing) to see how increased official interest in the regulation of sex work runs in parallel with other forms of de facto or de jure regulation of women&#8217;s bodies and behaviour, and with conservative, reactionary or authoritarian political movements and regimes. I think it&#8217;s partly the very long historical connection between women&#8217;s (perceived) innate sexual disorder and other forms of social/political disorder that makes men almost invisible &#8211; either as buyers or sellers &#8211; in mainstream discourses about the sex industry.</p>
<p>I consider myself a sex-positive feminist, but I think the mainstreaming of stripper culture has been a big step backwards and is part of an anti-feminist backlash that cons young women into believing they&#8217;re liberating themselves by turning themselves into disposable (and therefore low value) commodities. But moves like increasing censorship, shutting down clubs and making prostitution illegal are not the answer. They&#8217;re just another expression of patriarchal culture that treats all women as either helpless victims or dangerous sluts, and either way, as not capable of full human autonomy. I agree with Carol Leigh&#8217;s stance that poverty, access to education and other structural issues need to be addressed before anyone can really talk about full consent or free choice in this context.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard J</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2009/11/08/strippers/comment-page-1/#comment-14399</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>One of the strangest bits of gender dynamics in action I&#039;ve ever seen was when (on a stag weekend) I ended up in a unisex strip club in Cologne, fairly explicitly designed to remove cash from stag and hen parties as quickly and efficiently as possible. Very odd place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the strangest bits of gender dynamics in action I&#8217;ve ever seen was when (on a stag weekend) I ended up in a unisex strip club in Cologne, fairly explicitly designed to remove cash from stag and hen parties as quickly and efficiently as possible. Very odd place.</p>
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