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	<title>Comments on: Cows</title>
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	<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/12/13/cows/</link>
	<description>Failing better at understanding the past</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/12/13/cows/#comment-10891</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is all interesting. By the time of the civil wars the suburbs would have been bigger than in the Agas map, but still not so big that East Enders were completely cut off from the countryside or the cattle markets.

Also Erica Fudge suggests that in early modern England, unlike today, there were strong and obvious links between animals and meat: the body of the animal was left as intact as possible during preparation because people liked to know what kind of animal they were eating. She points out all kinds of anxieties about pies because you couldn't be sure what was in them.

It wouldn't be surprising if there was a cultural gulf between Londoners and rural people as the environment, and social and economic structures were so different (far more different than the chalk and cheese country which David Underdown suggested produced two rival cultures in the countryside). I tend to be suspicious of suggestions that in a particular period most people never went more than 10 miles from home (not least because the period varies according to what it's being contrasted with! Some people say railways changed everything, other the First World War etc). If it was true in the seventeenth century the economy as we know it wouldn't have been able to function. But that doesn't mean that people weren't insular. I'm quite prepared to believe that there were strong local and regional variations in culture which survived travel and mixing with non-local people. I'm not really going anywhere with this. The cow thing has just sparked off lots of random thoughts...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all interesting. By the time of the civil wars the suburbs would have been bigger than in the Agas map, but still not so big that East Enders were completely cut off from the countryside or the cattle markets.</p>
<p>Also Erica Fudge suggests that in early modern England, unlike today, there were strong and obvious links between animals and meat: the body of the animal was left as intact as possible during preparation because people liked to know what kind of animal they were eating. She points out all kinds of anxieties about pies because you couldn&#8217;t be sure what was in them.</p>
<p>It wouldn&#8217;t be surprising if there was a cultural gulf between Londoners and rural people as the environment, and social and economic structures were so different (far more different than the chalk and cheese country which David Underdown suggested produced two rival cultures in the countryside). I tend to be suspicious of suggestions that in a particular period most people never went more than 10 miles from home (not least because the period varies according to what it&#8217;s being contrasted with! Some people say railways changed everything, other the First World War etc). If it was true in the seventeenth century the economy as we know it wouldn&#8217;t have been able to function. But that doesn&#8217;t mean that people weren&#8217;t insular. I&#8217;m quite prepared to believe that there were strong local and regional variations in culture which survived travel and mixing with non-local people. I&#8217;m not really going anywhere with this. The cow thing has just sparked off lots of random thoughts&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Cardinal Wolsey</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/12/13/cows/#comment-10890</link>
		<dc:creator>Cardinal Wolsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/12/13/cows/#comment-10890</guid>
		<description>Perusal of the &lt;a href="http://mapoflondon.uvic.ca/" title="this site" rel="nofollow"&gt;Agas Map of early modern London&lt;/a&gt; at  certainly reveals various livestock grazing in the fields - I guess it depends to what extent Londoners moved around the city at that time as to whether they came into contact; it's certainly no faster now!.
A search for "Smithfield" on the same site also turned this interesting item on &lt;a href="http://mapoflondon.uvic.ca/render_page.php?id=COWL1&#38;searchterm=smithfield" title="Cow Lane" rel="nofollow"&gt;Cow Lane.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perusal of the <a href="http://mapoflondon.uvic.ca/" title="this site" rel="nofollow">Agas Map of early modern London</a> at  certainly reveals various livestock grazing in the fields - I guess it depends to what extent Londoners moved around the city at that time as to whether they came into contact; it&#8217;s certainly no faster now!.<br />
A search for &#8220;Smithfield&#8221; on the same site also turned this interesting item on <a href="http://mapoflondon.uvic.ca/render_page.php?id=COWL1&amp;searchterm=smithfield" title="Cow Lane" rel="nofollow">Cow Lane.</a></p>
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		<title>By: mercurius politicus</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/12/13/cows/#comment-10887</link>
		<dc:creator>mercurius politicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/12/13/cows/#comment-10887</guid>
		<description>My understanding has always been that London would have been pretty full of livestock at this time, both in pastures dotted about the city and in terms of householders keeping a few animals (see &lt;a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=LyT0GPWWkFIC&#38;pg=PA182&#38;dq=cattle+london+early+modern&#38;lr=&#38;ie=ISO-8859-1&#38;sig=86AhX_vIlGeii7oWRSM-e_j8YXo#PPA183,M1" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;).

If you are interested in following up the "townie" stereotype you might want to look at an article by Tony Wrigley in &lt;a href="http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0031-2746(196707)37%3C44%3AASMOLI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-V" rel="nofollow"&gt;Past and Present&lt;/a&gt; in which he argues there was a qualitative difference in the way Londoners behaved and appeared to that of people from elsewhere in England. Various others works have taken Wrigley's ideas and considered them. But it would be interesting to know how much contact Robert Harley had with London - was he a member of one of the Inns of Court? Did his family spend time in London? etc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding has always been that London would have been pretty full of livestock at this time, both in pastures dotted about the city and in terms of householders keeping a few animals (see <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=LyT0GPWWkFIC&amp;pg=PA182&amp;dq=cattle+london+early+modern&amp;lr=&amp;ie=ISO-8859-1&amp;sig=86AhX_vIlGeii7oWRSM-e_j8YXo#PPA183,M1" rel="nofollow">here</a>).</p>
<p>If you are interested in following up the &#8220;townie&#8221; stereotype you might want to look at an article by Tony Wrigley in <a href="http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0031-2746(196707)37%3C44%3AASMOLI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-V" rel="nofollow">Past and Present</a> in which he argues there was a qualitative difference in the way Londoners behaved and appeared to that of people from elsewhere in England. Various others works have taken Wrigley&#8217;s ideas and considered them. But it would be interesting to know how much contact Robert Harley had with London - was he a member of one of the Inns of Court? Did his family spend time in London? etc</p>
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