<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Teching up or dumbing down?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/</link>
	<description>Failing better at understanding the past</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 23:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Lafayette C. Curtis</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6907</link>
		<dc:creator>Lafayette C. Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6907</guid>
		<description>Probably because turtling gives visually more impressive results to the inexperienced players--lots of towers or static defenses tend to give them a better sense of security than a strong force of visually smaller units, even though this sense of security generally tends to be a false one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably because turtling gives visually more impressive results to the inexperienced players&#8211;lots of towers or static defenses tend to give them a better sense of security than a strong force of visually smaller units, even though this sense of security generally tends to be a false one.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6877</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6877</guid>
		<description>It's true that resource gathering is a good way of forcing players to care about taking and holding territory. There seems to be a lot of resistance to that style of gameplay at lower levels. In SWGB, where resources were crucial, a lot of noobs tended to turtle instead of booming, even though it was inevitable that they'd be wiped out by the superior resources of any half-competent player.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true that resource gathering is a good way of forcing players to care about taking and holding territory. There seems to be a lot of resistance to that style of gameplay at lower levels. In SWGB, where resources were crucial, a lot of noobs tended to turtle instead of booming, even though it was inevitable that they&#8217;d be wiped out by the superior resources of any half-competent player.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lafayette C. Curtis</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6871</link>
		<dc:creator>Lafayette C. Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6871</guid>
		<description>Brett probably has a point--personally, I dislike the "normal" RTSs and have never been very good at them because I usually get overwhelmed by the need to micromanage both my villager/worker/whatever units and military formations at the same time. There are always exceptions, of course; &lt;i&gt;Rise of Nations&lt;/i&gt; has a mechanism for automatically assigning idle villagers to work or to auto-manage the military units so that I can concentrate on one thing at a time, and I found that I can enjoy it more than I do with most other RTS games.

I love resource management. It's just that I prefer to play it on a really macrosopic, resource-focused scale where I won't have to worry about the movement of every single unit/marker/element on the map, and most of the games that allow me to do this are turn-based nation-building games like &lt;i&gt;Europa Universalis&lt;/i&gt;. On the other hand, when I play in the military aspect I prefer to focus solely on it, temporarily or permanently setting aside the question of resource gathering--so in this case I tend to lean towards real-time tactical (not real-time &lt;i&gt;strategic&lt;/i&gt;) games like Microsoft's &lt;i&gt;Close Combat&lt;/i&gt; series. I still dislike micromanagement, though, which is why I'm singling out &lt;i&gt;Close Combat&lt;/i&gt; for particular mention; in this series, the soldiers can do entirely unexpected things (sometimes the exact opposite of what you want them to do) if you micromanage them too much.

The article writers makes a salient point when he mentions the &lt;i&gt;Total War&lt;/i&gt; series and its two distinct strategic and tactical modes. I'm more comfortable playing the &lt;i&gt;Total War&lt;/i&gt; games than most other games because it &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; allow me to concentrate on one thing at a time--resource-building on the strategic map and limited-resource battles on the tactical map--and, moreover, it packs both features within the single game. Unfortunately, I think these games still allow too much micromanagement. Sometimes, just for fun, I artificially restrict my choices on the battle map by grouping most of the units into an AI-controlled "corps" or two and &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; personally directing any units except for a few mobile (usually cavalry) units I've grouped into a central reserve. Believe me, trying to rescue the AI-controlled groups from their inevitable blunders is fun.

BTW, Jakob's last comment reminds me of a fairly old RTS game titled &lt;i&gt;Total Annihilation&lt;/i&gt;. Many of its scenarios are designed so that the players will have to fight for control of several concentrated resource nodes and to defend/secure the resource harvesters working on these nodes from potential attacks. Maybe these scenarios were designed to please old-fashioned hex-oriented wargamers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brett probably has a point&#8211;personally, I dislike the &#8220;normal&#8221; RTSs and have never been very good at them because I usually get overwhelmed by the need to micromanage both my villager/worker/whatever units and military formations at the same time. There are always exceptions, of course; <i>Rise of Nations</i> has a mechanism for automatically assigning idle villagers to work or to auto-manage the military units so that I can concentrate on one thing at a time, and I found that I can enjoy it more than I do with most other RTS games.</p>
<p>I love resource management. It&#8217;s just that I prefer to play it on a really macrosopic, resource-focused scale where I won&#8217;t have to worry about the movement of every single unit/marker/element on the map, and most of the games that allow me to do this are turn-based nation-building games like <i>Europa Universalis</i>. On the other hand, when I play in the military aspect I prefer to focus solely on it, temporarily or permanently setting aside the question of resource gathering&#8211;so in this case I tend to lean towards real-time tactical (not real-time <i>strategic</i>) games like Microsoft&#8217;s <i>Close Combat</i> series. I still dislike micromanagement, though, which is why I&#8217;m singling out <i>Close Combat</i> for particular mention; in this series, the soldiers can do entirely unexpected things (sometimes the exact opposite of what you want them to do) if you micromanage them too much.</p>
<p>The article writers makes a salient point when he mentions the <i>Total War</i> series and its two distinct strategic and tactical modes. I&#8217;m more comfortable playing the <i>Total War</i> games than most other games because it <i>does</i> allow me to concentrate on one thing at a time&#8211;resource-building on the strategic map and limited-resource battles on the tactical map&#8211;and, moreover, it packs both features within the single game. Unfortunately, I think these games still allow too much micromanagement. Sometimes, just for fun, I artificially restrict my choices on the battle map by grouping most of the units into an AI-controlled &#8220;corps&#8221; or two and <i>not</i> personally directing any units except for a few mobile (usually cavalry) units I&#8217;ve grouped into a central reserve. Believe me, trying to rescue the AI-controlled groups from their inevitable blunders is fun.</p>
<p>BTW, Jakob&#8217;s last comment reminds me of a fairly old RTS game titled <i>Total Annihilation</i>. Many of its scenarios are designed so that the players will have to fight for control of several concentrated resource nodes and to defend/secure the resource harvesters working on these nodes from potential attacks. Maybe these scenarios were designed to please old-fashioned hex-oriented wargamers?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jakob</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6846</link>
		<dc:creator>Jakob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6846</guid>
		<description>I wonder also whether resources were (are?) used partly because they require the players to take and hold terrain, in the same way that wargames often have VP conditions on parts of the map.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder also whether resources were (are?) used partly because they require the players to take and hold terrain, in the same way that wargames often have VP conditions on parts of the map.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6836</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6836</guid>
		<description>Now I'm wondering where the idea for Populous came from. Was it truly original or did it combine some existing elements from other genres in the way that RTS from Dune 2 onwards seems to have done? It's kind of similar to Sim City, but they both came out in the same year. They were both apparently influenced by level editors more than games themselves, but apart from that I'm not sure what the precedents are. I'm cautious about assuming that any game is totally original. Even Paradroid, which I used to think was one of the most original games ever, is arguably an incremental development of Pac Man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now I&#8217;m wondering where the idea for Populous came from. Was it truly original or did it combine some existing elements from other genres in the way that RTS from Dune 2 onwards seems to have done? It&#8217;s kind of similar to Sim City, but they both came out in the same year. They were both apparently influenced by level editors more than games themselves, but apart from that I&#8217;m not sure what the precedents are. I&#8217;m cautious about assuming that any game is totally original. Even Paradroid, which I used to think was one of the most original games ever, is arguably an incremental development of Pac Man.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6827</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6827</guid>
		<description>I never got to play Dune II ... in fact, I didn't have access to a computer then, unless it was the C64 stashed in the cupboard! I think "Civ + SimCity" probably goes some way towards explaining the origins of RTS -- those games were revolutionary in their day, and massively popular. As Gavin suggests, resource gathering has long been a feature of turn-based strategy and board games. It's common in WWII grand strategic games: good old World in Flames has both generic mineral resources and oil resources which you need to hold in order for your factories to be able make new units. There it makes sense given the scales involved. On tactical levels ... nah, it's just silly. (LOL @ Crusader tanks being made from fruit!)

About the only RTS game where the concept sort of made logical sense to me (aside from AoE and similar, as Gavin notes) was Homeworld. It's a war fought on the run and so there's no home front to produce weapons, which means you have to guard your little asteroid harvesters until they return to your base ship to feed the production lines.  Even then, you have to accept that your base ship has a factory which can produce (and crew!) all sizes of spaceships from fighters to battleships multiple times within the course of one battle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never got to play Dune II &#8230; in fact, I didn&#8217;t have access to a computer then, unless it was the C64 stashed in the cupboard! I think &#8220;Civ + SimCity&#8221; probably goes some way towards explaining the origins of RTS &#8212; those games were revolutionary in their day, and massively popular. As Gavin suggests, resource gathering has long been a feature of turn-based strategy and board games. It&#8217;s common in WWII grand strategic games: good old World in Flames has both generic mineral resources and oil resources which you need to hold in order for your factories to be able make new units. There it makes sense given the scales involved. On tactical levels &#8230; nah, it&#8217;s just silly. (LOL @ Crusader tanks being made from fruit!)</p>
<p>About the only RTS game where the concept sort of made logical sense to me (aside from AoE and similar, as Gavin notes) was Homeworld. It&#8217;s a war fought on the run and so there&#8217;s no home front to produce weapons, which means you have to guard your little asteroid harvesters until they return to your base ship to feed the production lines.  Even then, you have to accept that your base ship has a factory which can produce (and crew!) all sizes of spaceships from fighters to battleships multiple times within the course of one battle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6798</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6798</guid>
		<description>Populous was kind of an ancestor of RTS as we know it. Growing your population was a form of resource management, the action happened in real time, and it had a mini-map. But on the other hand you had no direct control of your people. Maybe Sim City had some influence on the base building side of things too. I'm not sure what there was before that. There were certainly games that involved commanding military units in real time way back in the 80s (like Combat Leader), but Dune 2 might well have been the first to combine that sort of thing with the resource management from Civ. I suspect resource management went back a lot further in turn based strategy, and possibly to board games, but I don't know enough about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Populous was kind of an ancestor of RTS as we know it. Growing your population was a form of resource management, the action happened in real time, and it had a mini-map. But on the other hand you had no direct control of your people. Maybe Sim City had some influence on the base building side of things too. I&#8217;m not sure what there was before that. There were certainly games that involved commanding military units in real time way back in the 80s (like Combat Leader), but Dune 2 might well have been the first to combine that sort of thing with the resource management from Civ. I suspect resource management went back a lot further in turn based strategy, and possibly to board games, but I don&#8217;t know enough about it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jakob</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6797</link>
		<dc:creator>Jakob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6797</guid>
		<description>What were the progenitors of RTSes? I only ever played them on the PC, so can only speak to the games on there. Did Dune 2 and Warcraft take their resource management model from somewhere else? From what I can find (well, a quick wikipedia) Dune 2 was the first RTS to incorporate a resource management side to the gameplay. I wonder how much it was influenced by the original Civ. After the success of Dune 2 and Warcraft, I can see resource management being added simply as a must-have feature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What were the progenitors of RTSes? I only ever played them on the PC, so can only speak to the games on there. Did Dune 2 and Warcraft take their resource management model from somewhere else? From what I can find (well, a quick wikipedia) Dune 2 was the first RTS to incorporate a resource management side to the gameplay. I wonder how much it was influenced by the original Civ. After the success of Dune 2 and Warcraft, I can see resource management being added simply as a must-have feature.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6771</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6771</guid>
		<description>RTS games are pretty bizarre. I'm starting to wonder why resource management was ever part of the genre. It doesn't seem to have much obvious appeal. I kind of like it but wouldn't most people rather get straight to the fighting? Maybe it's down to the conservatism of the industry: &lt;i&gt;Age Of Empires&lt;/i&gt; happened to be a success, so they kept the formula and incrementally changed it. In AoE starting with nothing but a few workers and building a base from scratch kind of makes sense because it's set in very early times and the idea is that you're building a civilisation from the start. It's certainly an oversimplification of how settled agrarian societies got started but it'll do for a game. The whole thing has just got more absurd as that style of gameplay has been applied to later and later periods. Maybe most people could accept it in AoK, just because the middle ages are popularly believed to be primitive and barbaric, and most people don't appreciate how sophisticated medieval economies could be. I can even accept it in SWGB if the idea is that small expeditions have been sent to colonise new planets, although it doesn't lead to a very Star Wars-y feel (this was Uncle Owen's Star Wars even more than Galaxies was!). In WWII it just looks really stupid. I remember playing a demo of a game (possibly &lt;i&gt;Empires: Dawn of the Modern World&lt;/i&gt; or something like that) where I had to get my villagers to pick fruit and cut down trees so that I could make a Crusader tank!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RTS games are pretty bizarre. I&#8217;m starting to wonder why resource management was ever part of the genre. It doesn&#8217;t seem to have much obvious appeal. I kind of like it but wouldn&#8217;t most people rather get straight to the fighting? Maybe it&#8217;s down to the conservatism of the industry: <i>Age Of Empires</i> happened to be a success, so they kept the formula and incrementally changed it. In AoE starting with nothing but a few workers and building a base from scratch kind of makes sense because it&#8217;s set in very early times and the idea is that you&#8217;re building a civilisation from the start. It&#8217;s certainly an oversimplification of how settled agrarian societies got started but it&#8217;ll do for a game. The whole thing has just got more absurd as that style of gameplay has been applied to later and later periods. Maybe most people could accept it in AoK, just because the middle ages are popularly believed to be primitive and barbaric, and most people don&#8217;t appreciate how sophisticated medieval economies could be. I can even accept it in SWGB if the idea is that small expeditions have been sent to colonise new planets, although it doesn&#8217;t lead to a very Star Wars-y feel (this was Uncle Owen&#8217;s Star Wars even more than Galaxies was!). In WWII it just looks really stupid. I remember playing a demo of a game (possibly <i>Empires: Dawn of the Modern World</i> or something like that) where I had to get my villagers to pick fruit and cut down trees so that I could make a Crusader tank!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mercurius politicus</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6766</link>
		<dc:creator>mercurius politicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/10/14/teching-up-or-dumbing-down/#comment-6766</guid>
		<description>The game that I really noticed this in was Company of Heroes - although it's still resource based (men, fuel, and ammo essentially), it disguises it very well so that building resources becomes a knock-on effect of capturing territory, which is, after all, the objective of the game. I think the pace of the game changes as a result. In particular I remember playing the Carentan level where you have to defend against a Panzer counter-attack and literally feeling my adrenaline rise as I tried to defend against attacks from 3 directions. Resources didn't come into it in terms of the game experience. So I wonder if game players these days, at least those outside the traditional RTS market, look for a more action-packed experience and the developers are giving it to them. Certainly I think having resources as an integral part of the game changes the pace somewhat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The game that I really noticed this in was Company of Heroes - although it&#8217;s still resource based (men, fuel, and ammo essentially), it disguises it very well so that building resources becomes a knock-on effect of capturing territory, which is, after all, the objective of the game. I think the pace of the game changes as a result. In particular I remember playing the Carentan level where you have to defend against a Panzer counter-attack and literally feeling my adrenaline rise as I tried to defend against attacks from 3 directions. Resources didn&#8217;t come into it in terms of the game experience. So I wonder if game players these days, at least those outside the traditional RTS market, look for a more action-packed experience and the developers are giving it to them. Certainly I think having resources as an integral part of the game changes the pace somewhat.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
