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	<title>Comments on: Cavalry Charges: Shock</title>
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	<description>Failing better at understanding the past</description>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-14518</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 08:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-14518</guid>
		<description>This post is quite old. I&#039;ve changed my position a few times since (click the cavalry charges tag at the bottom of the post to find other related posts). As I&#039;m preparing an article for publication, the latest version of my opinion isn&#039;t online, but here are some brief answers to your points.

The &quot;caracole&quot; was a 16th century tactic and seems to have gone out of fashion by the 1640s, even among armies which weren&#039;t using Swedish tactics. There are only a couple of vague ambiguous examples from the Civil Wars and no explicit description of a full blown caracole as defined by modern historians. I think the dialectic between caracole and shock is misleading. ECW cavalry used a variety of tactics which didn&#039;t quite fit either definition. Prince Rupert advocated charging into close combat but there&#039;s no evidence that he believed in physical shock. His orders to reserve fire suggest that he was still expecting a fight at close quarters. It seems to me that the idea of horses crashing into each other belongs mostly to the 18th and 19th centuries and hadn&#039;t yet come into fashion in the 1640s. Eyewitness accounts of ECW battles don&#039;t describe anything which could be interpreted as shock. Either one side ran away before contact, or they fought hand to hand for a long time.

I&#039;m a big fan of Wanklyn&#039;s work, especially his anti-determinist view of the war, and his Decisive Battles book (see my &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/12/06/review-wanklyn-decisive-battles/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;review&lt;/a&gt;). I think the shock thing really comes from Frank Jones as it doesn&#039;t appear in Wanklyn&#039;s solo work.

I think things were different in the Boer War and First World War because the firepower of magazine rifles, machine guns and quick-firing artillery forced infantry into looser formations. Then cavalry could ride between them and stab them with lances or swords. Ironically I think this is the opposite of a metanarrative of progress: pike armed infantry were almost impossible to break with a cavalry charge; after the abandonment of the pike, musketeers in close formation could be broken if even one horse crashed into them; and by the early 20th century infantry in the open were perhaps more vulnerable to cavalry than ever before and relied on trenches and wire to keep them safe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post is quite old. I&#8217;ve changed my position a few times since (click the cavalry charges tag at the bottom of the post to find other related posts). As I&#8217;m preparing an article for publication, the latest version of my opinion isn&#8217;t online, but here are some brief answers to your points.</p>
<p>The &#8220;caracole&#8221; was a 16th century tactic and seems to have gone out of fashion by the 1640s, even among armies which weren&#8217;t using Swedish tactics. There are only a couple of vague ambiguous examples from the Civil Wars and no explicit description of a full blown caracole as defined by modern historians. I think the dialectic between caracole and shock is misleading. ECW cavalry used a variety of tactics which didn&#8217;t quite fit either definition. Prince Rupert advocated charging into close combat but there&#8217;s no evidence that he believed in physical shock. His orders to reserve fire suggest that he was still expecting a fight at close quarters. It seems to me that the idea of horses crashing into each other belongs mostly to the 18th and 19th centuries and hadn&#8217;t yet come into fashion in the 1640s. Eyewitness accounts of ECW battles don&#8217;t describe anything which could be interpreted as shock. Either one side ran away before contact, or they fought hand to hand for a long time.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a big fan of Wanklyn&#8217;s work, especially his anti-determinist view of the war, and his Decisive Battles book (see my <a href="http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2007/12/06/review-wanklyn-decisive-battles/" rel="nofollow">review</a>). I think the shock thing really comes from Frank Jones as it doesn&#8217;t appear in Wanklyn&#8217;s solo work.</p>
<p>I think things were different in the Boer War and First World War because the firepower of magazine rifles, machine guns and quick-firing artillery forced infantry into looser formations. Then cavalry could ride between them and stab them with lances or swords. Ironically I think this is the opposite of a metanarrative of progress: pike armed infantry were almost impossible to break with a cavalry charge; after the abandonment of the pike, musketeers in close formation could be broken if even one horse crashed into them; and by the early 20th century infantry in the open were perhaps more vulnerable to cavalry than ever before and relied on trenches and wire to keep them safe.</p>
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		<title>By: D. K.</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-14517</link>
		<dc:creator>D. K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 01:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-14517</guid>
		<description>A point relevant to this piece; the decline in shock tactics was indeed largely due to the better use of infantry and infantry firearms. However, this meant that cavalry had to do something else - that something else was fire pistols in a conveyor fashion (the Spanish &#039;caracole&#039;). Thus, by the time of the English Civil War, shock-cavalry doctrine was in a new infancy - only Gustavus Adolphus had managed it with any real success, and then against usually inferior odds. You&#039;re quite right to suggest that it was an impractical desire to have found both the material and the discipline necessary to conduct a shock-action during the English Civil War, though the implication that anyone suggesting it took place is mistaken is perhaps wide of the mark - contemporaries would record what modern historians might call &#039;a stampede&#039; as a shock-action - that is what they were seeing, as they knew nothing otherwise. (Incidentally, I do know Malcolm Wanklyn somewhat, and his research is usually first-class - no doubt he&#039;s not just being poetic when he suggests that cavalry attacked in closed-ranks during that conflict).

With regards to the idea of cavalry running down fleeing infantry; in the course of writing a recent paper, I&#039;ve come across much evidence for such events, and for their usefulness in battle. Obviously such events are rare and impractical in a set-piece affair such as Waterloo; however, in a much more informal contest, such as those found during the Second Boer War, fleeing infantry, and indeed, fleeing dismounted horsemen, were regularly run-down (&#039;bagged&#039;) by British lancers. The Boers had a justifiable terror of the appearance of Lancers, and these were men armed with quick-firing magazine rifles, usually fighting from cover.

Sorry if that all sounds a little like a gripe - I&#039;m thoroughly enjoying reading your cavalry-related articles, it&#039;s my pet-passion somewhat, so it&#039;s nice to come across such good material on the internet that isn&#039;t a century old !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A point relevant to this piece; the decline in shock tactics was indeed largely due to the better use of infantry and infantry firearms. However, this meant that cavalry had to do something else &#8211; that something else was fire pistols in a conveyor fashion (the Spanish &#8216;caracole&#8217;). Thus, by the time of the English Civil War, shock-cavalry doctrine was in a new infancy &#8211; only Gustavus Adolphus had managed it with any real success, and then against usually inferior odds. You&#8217;re quite right to suggest that it was an impractical desire to have found both the material and the discipline necessary to conduct a shock-action during the English Civil War, though the implication that anyone suggesting it took place is mistaken is perhaps wide of the mark &#8211; contemporaries would record what modern historians might call &#8216;a stampede&#8217; as a shock-action &#8211; that is what they were seeing, as they knew nothing otherwise. (Incidentally, I do know Malcolm Wanklyn somewhat, and his research is usually first-class &#8211; no doubt he&#8217;s not just being poetic when he suggests that cavalry attacked in closed-ranks during that conflict).</p>
<p>With regards to the idea of cavalry running down fleeing infantry; in the course of writing a recent paper, I&#8217;ve come across much evidence for such events, and for their usefulness in battle. Obviously such events are rare and impractical in a set-piece affair such as Waterloo; however, in a much more informal contest, such as those found during the Second Boer War, fleeing infantry, and indeed, fleeing dismounted horsemen, were regularly run-down (&#8216;bagged&#8217;) by British lancers. The Boers had a justifiable terror of the appearance of Lancers, and these were men armed with quick-firing magazine rifles, usually fighting from cover.</p>
<p>Sorry if that all sounds a little like a gripe &#8211; I&#8217;m thoroughly enjoying reading your cavalry-related articles, it&#8217;s my pet-passion somewhat, so it&#8217;s nice to come across such good material on the internet that isn&#8217;t a century old !</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-14299</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 07:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-14299</guid>
		<description>There isn&#039;t much contemporary evidence that Rupert&#039;s cavalry charged faster or that Cromwell&#039;s charged slower. Most accounts of battles which describe cavalry charges don&#039;t mention the pace at all, and those few that do are open to a variety of interpretations. This is just a lazy assumption which has been made by some historians in the absence of any conclusive proof. It might be somehow related to the cultural stereotypes of roundhead and cavalier.

In &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/15/cavalry-charges-practice/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this follow-up post&lt;/a&gt; I suggested that there might be some trade-off between speed and tightness of formation, and that either might help to intimidate the enemy into running away before contact was made. But in this period if they got right up to each other it looks like they always stopped and went into hand to hand combat (Keegan found that cavalry might pass through each other in the Napoleonic wars but I haven&#039;t found any definite examples in the English Civil War).

You should also see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/03/13/when-horses-collide/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this post&lt;/a&gt; which includes more evidence of what actually happens when horses crash into each other. It ain&#039;t pretty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There isn&#8217;t much contemporary evidence that Rupert&#8217;s cavalry charged faster or that Cromwell&#8217;s charged slower. Most accounts of battles which describe cavalry charges don&#8217;t mention the pace at all, and those few that do are open to a variety of interpretations. This is just a lazy assumption which has been made by some historians in the absence of any conclusive proof. It might be somehow related to the cultural stereotypes of roundhead and cavalier.</p>
<p>In <a href="http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/15/cavalry-charges-practice/" rel="nofollow">this follow-up post</a> I suggested that there might be some trade-off between speed and tightness of formation, and that either might help to intimidate the enemy into running away before contact was made. But in this period if they got right up to each other it looks like they always stopped and went into hand to hand combat (Keegan found that cavalry might pass through each other in the Napoleonic wars but I haven&#8217;t found any definite examples in the English Civil War).</p>
<p>You should also see <a href="http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2008/03/13/when-horses-collide/" rel="nofollow">this post</a> which includes more evidence of what actually happens when horses crash into each other. It ain&#8217;t pretty.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-14298</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-14298</guid>
		<description>Surely it could have worked if horses can ride roughly in a formation, but it would obviously have had to be a lot slower. I agree that two shock charges against each other would not haave been a good idea, but in the civil war, when used by Cromwell&#039;s new model army, it would have worked, as Prince Rupert used a lesstightly packed, but faster charge. Because Prince Rupert&#039;s men were spread out, wouldn&#039;t Cromwell&#039;s cavalry have stayed together as one strong body, that Rupert would have had trouble breaking, while his cavalry would be pushed backwards by a solid wall of cavalry?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely it could have worked if horses can ride roughly in a formation, but it would obviously have had to be a lot slower. I agree that two shock charges against each other would not haave been a good idea, but in the civil war, when used by Cromwell&#8217;s new model army, it would have worked, as Prince Rupert used a lesstightly packed, but faster charge. Because Prince Rupert&#8217;s men were spread out, wouldn&#8217;t Cromwell&#8217;s cavalry have stayed together as one strong body, that Rupert would have had trouble breaking, while his cavalry would be pushed backwards by a solid wall of cavalry?</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-1741</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-1741</guid>
		<description>What pace do you use for the charge? Can you keep the boot-to-boot formation at a full gallop? I&#039;m assuming there&#039;s a trade off between speed and tightness of formation, and that when cavalry charged at the trot it was so they could keep closer together. The most important point I was trying to make was about the collision between walls of horses. That would be very difficult to prove or disprove with re-enactment. I like to think that experienced cavalrymen would have realised that even if it could be done it would be undesirable, but there are examples (some cited by Keegan) of men who thought that it could and should be done, and even believed that it had happened when it almost certainly hadn&#039;t. Maybe a few accidental collisions between horses which couldn&#039;t stop or get out of the way in time, but not the &quot;single missile&quot; which Frank Jones talks about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What pace do you use for the charge? Can you keep the boot-to-boot formation at a full gallop? I&#8217;m assuming there&#8217;s a trade off between speed and tightness of formation, and that when cavalry charged at the trot it was so they could keep closer together. The most important point I was trying to make was about the collision between walls of horses. That would be very difficult to prove or disprove with re-enactment. I like to think that experienced cavalrymen would have realised that even if it could be done it would be undesirable, but there are examples (some cited by Keegan) of men who thought that it could and should be done, and even believed that it had happened when it almost certainly hadn&#8217;t. Maybe a few accidental collisions between horses which couldn&#8217;t stop or get out of the way in time, but not the &#8220;single missile&#8221; which Frank Jones talks about.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Felthousen</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-1715</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Felthousen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-1715</guid>
		<description>I do cavalry renacting we do charges on horseback and often against other charging cavalry units.  The key to it all is that the horses are trained to overcome their natural instents.  I have drilled boot to boot with other trooprs and the horses do not kick or bite each other.  The key again is the training of te horse and more importent the rider.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do cavalry renacting we do charges on horseback and often against other charging cavalry units.  The key to it all is that the horses are trained to overcome their natural instents.  I have drilled boot to boot with other trooprs and the horses do not kick or bite each other.  The key again is the training of te horse and more importent the rider.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-413</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-413</guid>
		<description>There has been lots of interesting discussion of this post at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=71226&quot; title=&quot;Napoleon Series forum&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Napoleon Series forum&lt;/a&gt;. There&#039;s also some discussion in French &lt;a href=&quot;http://associationsuchet.actifforum.com/viewtopic.forum?t=422&quot; title=&quot;4e/8e hussards 4e gardes d&#039;honneur&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There has been lots of interesting discussion of this post at the <a href="http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=71226" title="Napoleon Series forum" rel="nofollow">Napoleon Series forum</a>. There&#8217;s also some discussion in French <a href="http://associationsuchet.actifforum.com/viewtopic.forum?t=422" title="4e/8e hussards 4e gardes d'honneur" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-146</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-146</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t seen that, but John Keegan cites some similar stuff from Waterloo. The next post is going to look at what seventeenth-century theorists thought about the idea of shock, but the one after that will try to get at what really happened, and how cavalry charges worked (or didn&#039;t).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t seen that, but John Keegan cites some similar stuff from Waterloo. The next post is going to look at what seventeenth-century theorists thought about the idea of shock, but the one after that will try to get at what really happened, and how cavalry charges worked (or didn&#8217;t).</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Smailes</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-140</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Smailes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-140</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post is really interesting and raises an important point.<br />
The ideas of shock tactics are clearly misunderstood.<br />
My main problem has always been with the effectiveness of infantry withstanding cavalry charges. If the cavalry had been simply a massive steamroller, then no infantry formation would have been able to resist the charge. However, we see time and time again formed steady infantry, from all periods of history, being able to withstand a ‘shock’ charge.<br />
Have you considered Winston Churchill’s first hand account of the cavalry charge at Omdurman? Here he describes the 21st Lancers first contact with the enemy. He explains that despite the horses charging at full gallop, they are brought to a standstill by the mass of Dervishes. He likens the resultant stationary combat to police horses dispersing a crowd.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/12/13/cavalry-charges-shock/#comment-137</guid>
		<description>Yes, horses can panic in a stressful situation &#8212; loud noises and pain are both prime causes &#8212; and bolt, meaning they become completely uncontrollable and gallop in one direction as fast as they can. In this state, they can actually run into solid objects or drown themselves by running straight into water. Panic can easily spread through a herd and cause a stampede.

Horses are herd animals: they like to stay together and follow each other. You can see the herd mentality at work in horse races: horses often carry on running and jumping the fences even when they&#039;ve lost their jockeys. Some people see this in sentimental anthropomorphic terms (the horses love racing) but a more realistic assessment is that they&#039;re just following the rest of the horses.

All this can have big implications for cavalry. In &lt;i&gt;Edgehill: The Battle Reinterpreted&lt;/i&gt; (2004, ISBN: 1844151336), Chris Scott and Alan Turton compared the cavalry charges to stampedes. This was at the start of the civil war, when men and horses on both sides had relatively little training or experience. This could well account for the difficulty of bringing cavalry back into a battle after a successful charge, which I&#039;ll be talking about more in a later post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, horses can panic in a stressful situation &mdash; loud noises and pain are both prime causes &mdash; and bolt, meaning they become completely uncontrollable and gallop in one direction as fast as they can. In this state, they can actually run into solid objects or drown themselves by running straight into water. Panic can easily spread through a herd and cause a stampede.</p>
<p>Horses are herd animals: they like to stay together and follow each other. You can see the herd mentality at work in horse races: horses often carry on running and jumping the fences even when they&#8217;ve lost their jockeys. Some people see this in sentimental anthropomorphic terms (the horses love racing) but a more realistic assessment is that they&#8217;re just following the rest of the horses.</p>
<p>All this can have big implications for cavalry. In <i>Edgehill: The Battle Reinterpreted</i> (2004, ISBN: 1844151336), Chris Scott and Alan Turton compared the cavalry charges to stampedes. This was at the start of the civil war, when men and horses on both sides had relatively little training or experience. This could well account for the difficulty of bringing cavalry back into a battle after a successful charge, which I&#8217;ll be talking about more in a later post.</p>
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