Comments on: Horses, War, and Gender http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/ Failing better at understanding the past Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:50:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Investigations of a Dog » Horses and Gendered Language http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-14064 Investigations of a Dog » Horses and Gendered Language Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:04:12 +0000 http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-14064 [...] in October 2006 I posted about my speculative (and slightly mad?) project about gendered perceptions of war horses. In a [...] [...] in October 2006 I posted about my speculative (and slightly mad?) project about gendered perceptions of war horses. In a [...]

]]> By: Investigations of a Dog » Happy New January http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-349 Investigations of a Dog » Happy New January Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:12:48 +0000 http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-349 [...] In addition to all that, there’s still my Horses, War, and Gender project, which I haven’t done much about recently, my ongoing journey into critical theory (or insanity, depending on your point of view), learning latin (amorem faciamus et mortem desuper audiamus!), a couple of conference proposals which I’ll need to turn into papers if they get accepted, an article under consideration which will probably need revising when it finally comes back from the reviewers (unless they say it’s so bad that it should be burnt by the common hangman), and various ideas about computer games. Maybe it’s actually a good thing that I don’t have a job. [...] [...] In addition to all that, there’s still my Horses, War, and Gender project, which I haven’t done much about recently, my ongoing journey into critical theory (or insanity, depending on your point of view), learning latin (amorem faciamus et mortem desuper audiamus!), a couple of conference proposals which I’ll need to turn into papers if they get accepted, an article under consideration which will probably need revising when it finally comes back from the reviewers (unless they say it’s so bad that it should be burnt by the common hangman), and various ideas about computer games. Maybe it’s actually a good thing that I don’t have a job. [...]

]]> By: Zebee Johnstone http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-11 Zebee Johnstone Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:26:46 +0000 http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-11 When it comes to theorists, it's probably not knowing what they were talking about! I think of Patton recommending sabre work for cavalry based on school fencing on foot. Thus quite different to the styles that people who had fought on horseback had recommended. I could see a theorist in early modern times basing ideas on what fitted a theory of how the world worked compared to how it really did. When it comes to theorists, it’s probably not knowing what they were talking about! I think of Patton recommending sabre work for cavalry based on school fencing on foot. Thus quite different to the styles that people who had fought on horseback had recommended. I could see a theorist in early modern times basing ideas on what fitted a theory of how the world worked compared to how it really did.

]]> By: Gavin Robinson http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-7 Gavin Robinson Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:34:15 +0000 http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-7 Those are all good points which I'll be thinking about. I've got some experience of schooling ex-racehorses for dressage, so I know how unpredicatable and uncontrollable they can be. This also relates to how cavalry worked at the tactical and operational levels. Drill books often said that cavalry should be lined up knee to knee in battle formation. That would probably be difficult to maintain at the best of times and even more difficult with stallions attacking "friendly" horses or trying to mate with mares. The sources are generally vague about what pace cavalry attacked at. There would most likely have to be some trade off between speed and the tightness of the formation, as the faster they went the more ragged the line would get. In practice the aim of a charge was probably to intimidate the enemy into running away before contact was made, and either speed or a solid looking line might achieve that (or it might not). Being able to pull up and reform after a charge was really important, although it wasn't always achieved. However, one of the things I want to bring out is that armies spent very little of their time fighting big battles. The day to day work of cavalry was patrolling, raiding, bringing in contributions, guarding convoys, or just trying to find enough to eat (feeding horses was a major logistical problem). In those circumstances, endurance would be more important than speed or aggression. I can relate all this back to ideology in that if there were practical reasons why stallions were unsuitable for cavalry use (being aggressive, uncontrollable, and sexually active) then theorists who recommended them might have been influenced by gender bias, or at least didn't know what they were talking about. Those are all good points which I’ll be thinking about. I’ve got some experience of schooling ex-racehorses for dressage, so I know how unpredicatable and uncontrollable they can be. This also relates to how cavalry worked at the tactical and operational levels. Drill books often said that cavalry should be lined up knee to knee in battle formation. That would probably be difficult to maintain at the best of times and even more difficult with stallions attacking “friendly” horses or trying to mate with mares. The sources are generally vague about what pace cavalry attacked at. There would most likely have to be some trade off between speed and the tightness of the formation, as the faster they went the more ragged the line would get. In practice the aim of a charge was probably to intimidate the enemy into running away before contact was made, and either speed or a solid looking line might achieve that (or it might not). Being able to pull up and reform after a charge was really important, although it wasn’t always achieved.

However, one of the things I want to bring out is that armies spent very little of their time fighting big battles. The day to day work of cavalry was patrolling, raiding, bringing in contributions, guarding convoys, or just trying to find enough to eat (feeding horses was a major logistical problem). In those circumstances, endurance would be more important than speed or aggression.

I can relate all this back to ideology in that if there were practical reasons why stallions were unsuitable for cavalry use (being aggressive, uncontrollable, and sexually active) then theorists who recommended them might have been influenced by gender bias, or at least didn’t know what they were talking about.

]]> By: Zebee Johnstone http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-6 Zebee Johnstone Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:55:08 +0000 http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/2006/10/24/horses-war-gender/#comment-6 You don't mention practical reasons for preferring one to another. When a mare goes into season she upsets all stallions withing scent range and quite a few geldings. She herself can be a bit odd! In a close packed picket line a mare in season could make life a bit difficult I'd have thought if there were stallions about. I think if you are going to follow this you have to separate out the actual physical reasons, that is definitely observed differences, to the ideological. People who live all their lives with horses and work with them are going to observe what differences there arem how can you tell whether it's that or an untested assumption? Do mares have more endurance and in an army setting that outweighs the nuisance of season? Do stallions have better weight carrying and more eagerness, making them better for certain cavalry work even though they can be a nuisance? My experience with stallions used for working is with quarter horses which have a different temprement anyway. The thoroughbreds are usually kept segregated and racehorses are treated oddly anyway so they are going to be useless for comparison. So where's a good source of info on the general habits and temprement of the kinds of horses used for calvalry in the Civil War? Of the way they were handled when young? And how many of each were there anyway? These days most colts are gelded young as there's no reason to keep a horse entire unless you were definitely going to breed from it. So was a stallion hard to get or expensive or much better bred, and so a status symbol for that? Zebee You don’t mention practical reasons for preferring one to another.

When a mare goes into season she upsets all stallions withing scent range and quite a few geldings. She herself can be a bit odd! In a close packed picket line a mare in season could make life a bit difficult I’d have thought if there were stallions about.

I think if you are going to follow this you have to separate out the actual physical reasons, that is definitely observed differences, to the ideological. People who live all their lives with horses and work with them are going to observe what differences there arem how can you tell whether it’s that or an untested assumption?

Do mares have more endurance and in an army setting that outweighs the nuisance of season? Do stallions have better weight carrying and more eagerness, making them better for certain cavalry work even though they can be a nuisance?

My experience with stallions used for working is with quarter horses which have a different temprement anyway. The thoroughbreds are usually kept segregated and racehorses are treated oddly anyway so they are going to be useless for comparison. So where’s a good source of info on the general habits and temprement of the kinds of horses used for calvalry in the Civil War? Of the way they were handled when young?

And how many of each were there anyway? These days most colts are gelded young as there’s no reason to keep a horse entire unless you were definitely going to breed from it. So was a stallion hard to get or expensive or much better bred, and so a status symbol for that?

Zebee

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